The selfish meme

[trenchkamen]

Maybe my perception is skewed because I have accumulated several /co/mrade friends, who tend to introduce me to their /co/mrade friends, but it seems as though fandom at large is undergoing a renewed interest in Western comics. I've noticed it the past few years. In the early 2000's, manga was all the rage, and Western comics (especially the classic superhero comics) were generally regarded to be over-muscled, poorly-written waff, whereas (more) manga was regarded to have *depth* and *good artwork* and a distinct lack of Spandex. Now, people are re-discovering DC and Marvel and Vertigo. I attribute this to multiple possibilities:

1) As I said, my friend cloud is drifting to include long-time Western comic fans.
2) Western comics are undergoing a Renaissance of quality and creativity.
3) Interest is drifting; certain influential people re-discover Western comics, and spread the re-found brilliance to others in their peer groups.
4) It's not just me getting cynical and older; the overall quality of manga is going down. And that is sad.
5) The novelty of manga is lost, and manga actually has to be *good* to attract attention now. Which I approve of. The same standard is being applied to American comics with that loss of novelty. This is, IMHO, the best outcome, as it holds both mediums to a higher standard of artwork and storytelling.
6) Me and my peer group are growing up, and our tastes change accordingly. Honestly, I don't really like the standard Marvel art style--too muscular and Spandexy and blah--but I can see past that to a good story, easily.
7) As the hipster generation comes of age, it likes these things "ironically".
8) I have had something to the order of four cups of coffee and little to eat, and should stop taking out my ass.

Honestly, though, I do not feel as though I am in much of a position to evaluate. I don't read Marvel, I've only read some of the 'artsy' DC/Vertigo stuff like Sandman and Watchmen and some of the darker 80's Batman. I read The Crow in high school, and all things Jhonen Vasquez religiously. My cohort experienced Johnny the Homicidal Maniac at a particularly vulnerable period of adolescence, where Johnny's loathing and rage against hypocrisy hit a chord. Some of that cohort did not see Johnny's hypocrisies, but there we go. They're the butt of the joke. I Feel Sick was published as we got older, and we appreciated its maturity in comparison to Johnny. It was the next stage in that evolution.

There's always been an interest in unconventional American comics. It just seems lately there is a return to the roots, the stereotypes.

I've also noticed that fandom has taken a turn toward the politically correct and activist. We're analyzing race, gender, class, and religion in our fandoms. We're asked to check our privilege and our preconceptions. More and more people (catalyzed, in so small part I am sure, by the Racebending controversy) are realizing that white, male, cis-gendered, heterosexual, and able-bodied is considered to be the default state of being. People who had not previously noticed sociological implications of works are seeing them for the first time, and engaging in discussion. There has always been a small, dedicated, intellectual subset of fandom that has done this; it seems that it has come to the fore more often as of late.

What do you guys think? I'd like to hear from long time /co/ people, especially.

Comments

[keichisfuuma.livejournal.com]

Hey hey gurl. Annie and I have noticed the same thing. I am reading a lot more American comics and reading a lot less manga and watching anime. I'm really picky about what I read though, and for the most part only read Alan Moore, who isn't American. I also really like Alessandro Barbucci and even though Vertigo is publishing his work it's only the translations from his comics that were originally in french. But after taking an independent comic class I guess I am getting more interested in other comics. I still like manga a lot but instead of like only reading stuff that came out of Japan I have really widened my selection. I think this is also due to the fact that I'm working toward being a comic artist and want to know as much as I can about comics from all over the world. Anywhoo, hope that helps! Smooches!

[trenchkamen.livejournal.com]

Oh crap, I'm showing my Americocentrisism. I was thinking more than Marvel/DC/Vertigo are American companies. Not that the authors are all American.

Widening the selection is the best answer I can think of--or the best outcome. Each person may have a different reason. You have a very specific set of influences--your schooling and environment. Maybe a lot of our generation is also going to art school and widening themselves to more comic book forms. Remmeber those kids who only wanted to draw anime, and thought realism was beneath them and stiffling their creativity? Yeah. They probably got phased out, or lost interest in anime as they got older, because to begin with their interest was immature. It had no ground to mature with them. As pretentious as this will sound, I think we had a firmer grasp of quality and complexity and art, even as stupid-ass teenagers.

[keichisfuuma.livejournal.com]

I'm inclined to agree. Mostly because I would like to think that's true. Haha. I actually had a really long talk about this with a friend last night. I wish you had been there!

[trenchkamen.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I feel pretentious for thinking that, but then I look around me at some of the people in fandom, and I realize maybe I had a point.

[hiraku536.livejournal.com]

First off, can't spell "meme" without "me" :D

Second, on to long rant on my general very very garbled feeling toward anime, manga, comic, and cartoon:

Back in middle school and high school, I adored manga and anime! Then sometime around college, I found myself only reading manga, until now, when... well, I'm not delving into American comic, per se, but I find myself very addicted to webcomics I've found online. ie. The < Epic Adventures of TJ & Amal, Sfeer Theory, Knights Errant, Family Man, A Softer World, Hark A Vagrant, etc etc etc

Hm... I still haven't read Johnny the Homicidal Maniac. I HAVE read The Crow back in Freshman. That was the first time when I realized, "Wow... American comic also has depth, too, when they wanted to." At least that's what I thought back then.

I also noticed that a few of the webcomic artists are actually WORKING to gear AWAY from drawing like anime. I can understand. Lots of anime drawings aren't fully grasping the body. That's why a lot of anime attempt looked stiff and unlively, imo.

That said, there's this... omg so hot: http://doubleleaf.deviantart.com/ It's very well drawn, but it's not entirely American style. Do you see what I'm trying to say? @_@

I think lots of anime/manga drawing are attempting to look more... "Realistic", while still retaining that anime feel. It's nice. I actually liked the drawing style for Baccano and Durarara (Haven't really watched either, so I shouldn't talk)

[intravenusann.livejournal.com]

The shift actually has a lot more to do with a larger picture than any of that stuff. I mean, that's sort of anecdotal stuff. Especially hipsters. Hipsters are responsible for nothing, eff them and their misinterpretation of the word irony.

Okay, so comics have been on this ~*~journey~*~ through time or some shit. They were gory and awesome and all Adventure Comics and Sex and Decapitated Heads and Batman and Robin being really gay when my Dad was a kid, but there were also fears that Communists wanted to make all American children into homosexuals or something through Batman. (No, actually, I've read some of the comics from back then, and there are some legitimate complaints.) Anyways, the Comics Code was self-imposed, mostly, but it did shitty things like strangle out all comics that weren't superhero comics. Good bye horror, spy, western, and all the various kinds of comics that existed. It also made comics a "little kid thing" and it would be decades for that to change.

There were shifting epochs of awesome or not awesome depending on your perspective, but then in the 1980s/1990s because of economic fuckwaddery, old comics from those epochs became COLLECTORS ITEMS. Consider beanie babies and you will realize that the 1990s had some sort of compulsive hoarding problem.

Anyways, this gorged the industry with money and it started to take off again. But to take off, new people had to be hired and while some of that was good--NEIL GAIMAN--some of it was also terrible--ROB LIEFELD. Contributing to this was the aging of comic readers and the desire to not be considered a "kids" industry anymore. Thus the darker, edgier stuff. Which, y'know, had it's good--NEIL GAIMAN--and it's bad--ROB LIEFELD. (Note how these things sort of are the same.)

TODAY, there's a desire to get rid of the BAD and to also "set things right" ie. go back to the Golden Age of comics when the people who write comics now were reading comics as youngin's. Personally, I find it annoying and it says to me, who read comics in the 90s as a youngin, that my childhood was full of shitty comics. Which it most certainly wasn't. I was reading indie comics way, way, way before they started being seen as legitimate and delicious summer blockbuster fodder--another thing which puts money into the industry and gives cred to comics. Admittedly, somethings, like Alan Moore's comics, can be improved by making movies out of them, but then everyone is like "OMG, Moore is such a comic writing god." And I want to punch them in the face, because if you say that, or god forbid you are an aspiring writer and you say you want to write comics like Alan Moore and his homeless person beard full of evil secrets, I know you don't know jack about comics.

It's like people who are like "OMG, NARUTO IS THE BEST THING EVER." and you know they're totally serious and you sort of hate them.

And yes, it's currently popular in fandom to get all crit interp and sociological on works and fandom. It worries me more than it pleases me, because I mostly get the feeling that it's a lot of non-activists patting themselves on the back for learning the ABCs of something and then flinging it around like the bunch of self-righteous internet academics that they are. ... And nothing else. Maybe they're putting their money where their internet mouth is, but they're probably not even willing to peel themselves away from the keyboard to go, idk, VOTE or actually DO SOMETHING OTHER THAN BE ON THE INTERNET BEING ANGRY AT PEOPLE. Now, there are plenty of people, usually at the forefront of these sorts of things, who really do know what they are talking about and who walk the walk, talk the talk, and etc. However, I worry that it's just another fad and every time a fangirl claims slash fanfic is revolutionizing the world for gay rights, I am even more compelled to violence than I am by Alan Moore fans (because, well, some of them it's not their fault and obviously I don't actually hate him and his works, I just realize that they're flawed, but really enjoyable... even if OHMIGOD he really needed someone to tell him TL;DR good lord TEAL DEAR).

[intravenusann.livejournal.com]

I hope you can take from my tone that I'm trying to be funny, though I really do have rather a hate-on for Alan Moore's fans (and a smaller one for Alan Moore the man)

[keichisfuuma.livejournal.com]

Okay, what I get form your rant is that liking whats popular isn't "cool" to you and makes us all a part of the mass of comic buying high school emo kids that think it makes them different.

Don't get me wrong, I get it. I totally see that shift in comics happening, and it drives me crazy, but Alan Moore is a fantastic writer that combines both the old school Super Hero aspect of comics with deep political and social messages. (Swamp Thing is a good exapmle) Just because there are tons of fat goth kids out there like "OMGLOLZZZ Alan moore is so awesome!" shouldn't mean us old school fans should stop liking him.

Same goes for Johnen Vasquez. I love his comics and started reading them in middle school just as they were coming out, but now I see on over saturated market of merchandise based off his work being sold to teenagers that think it makes them so dark and cool. Missing the point of his work entirely. But I continue to love his work, even if the fan base drives me nuts.

But it's not easy.

Am I kind of getting what you said or missing the point?

[intravenusann.livejournal.com]

No, actually. I mean, I read ongoing mainstream Marvel titles.

I do not like Alan Moore's writing because the things he does to female characters offend me. I do not like Alan Moore's writing because I don't see "deep political and social messages" I see "someone else did this better and you're just a toolbag with your own agenda." Also, have you looked at his scripts? He is NOT a fantastic writer. He's unhinged and the fact that artists ever worked with him is the only thing that says anything about any talent that lays under all the HOLY SHIT DUDE.

The script for Watchmen is over 150 pages long. That's just fucking unnecessary. And if it had to be 150 pages long, it could have ended with something other than a vagina monster that could be genetically dissected and clearly shown not to be an alien.

His old school fans are even more annoying, because some of them actually believe the stuff that Alan Moore says nowadays, which makes them possibly insane. They can accept no criticism of Alan Moore's work or his person, which is just dumb. He's not the Jesus of comics writing.

I never talked about Jhonen Vasquez. I love him. As a person, an artist, a writer, an illustrator. And if Slave Labor Graphics, the company, was a single human being I would probably fly to San Jose and hump it's leg and get arrested for being so damn inappropriate. I am sad that the reaction to his work is primarily what has caused Jhonen Vasquez to stop creating, especially because he's probably doing amazing things in the privacy of his own home right now and we'll never get to see them.

But considering most of my point in my original post was about the history of comic sales and creators and how we got to the place where we're at now and only 134 words out of 730 were critical of Alan Moore and most of those words were actually critical of his writing, because I'm very critical of Moore's writing, I'd say, yes, you missed the point. If you enjoyed Jhonen Vasquez's works, but you also were intensely critical of them for various reasons (and there are reasons to be critical of his work, too), but then got mobbed by people who said "You can't criticize him, he's an actual GOD with snake powers! You've doomed us all!" and, from that experience, you developed a hatred for Vasquez's work, his fans, and his self, then it would be much more in line with my hate-on for Moore.