The selfish meme
Aug. 3rd, 2010 04:47 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
trenchkamenMaybe my perception is skewed because I have accumulated several /co/mrade friends, who tend to introduce me to their /co/mrade friends, but it seems as though fandom at large is undergoing a renewed interest in Western comics. I've noticed it the past few years. In the early 2000's, manga was all the rage, and Western comics (especially the classic superhero comics) were generally regarded to be over-muscled, poorly-written waff, whereas (more) manga was regarded to have *depth* and *good artwork* and a distinct lack of Spandex. Now, people are re-discovering DC and Marvel and Vertigo. I attribute this to multiple possibilities:
1) As I said, my friend cloud is drifting to include long-time Western comic fans.
2) Western comics are undergoing a Renaissance of quality and creativity.
3) Interest is drifting; certain influential people re-discover Western comics, and spread the re-found brilliance to others in their peer groups.
4) It's not just me getting cynical and older; the overall quality of manga is going down. And that is sad.
5) The novelty of manga is lost, and manga actually has to be *good* to attract attention now. Which I approve of. The same standard is being applied to American comics with that loss of novelty. This is, IMHO, the best outcome, as it holds both mediums to a higher standard of artwork and storytelling.
6) Me and my peer group are growing up, and our tastes change accordingly. Honestly, I don't really like the standard Marvel art style--too muscular and Spandexy and blah--but I can see past that to a good story, easily.
7) As the hipster generation comes of age, it likes these things "ironically".
8) I have had something to the order of four cups of coffee and little to eat, and should stop taking out my ass.
Honestly, though, I do not feel as though I am in much of a position to evaluate. I don't read Marvel, I've only read some of the 'artsy' DC/Vertigo stuff like Sandman and Watchmen and some of the darker 80's Batman. I read The Crow in high school, and all things Jhonen Vasquez religiously. My cohort experienced Johnny the Homicidal Maniac at a particularly vulnerable period of adolescence, where Johnny's loathing and rage against hypocrisy hit a chord. Some of that cohort did not see Johnny's hypocrisies, but there we go. They're the butt of the joke. I Feel Sick was published as we got older, and we appreciated its maturity in comparison to Johnny. It was the next stage in that evolution.
There's always been an interest in unconventional American comics. It just seems lately there is a return to the roots, the stereotypes.
I've also noticed that fandom has taken a turn toward the politically correct and activist. We're analyzing race, gender, class, and religion in our fandoms. We're asked to check our privilege and our preconceptions. More and more people (catalyzed, in so small part I am sure, by the Racebending controversy) are realizing that white, male, cis-gendered, heterosexual, and able-bodied is considered to be the default state of being. People who had not previously noticed sociological implications of works are seeing them for the first time, and engaging in discussion. There has always been a small, dedicated, intellectual subset of fandom that has done this; it seems that it has come to the fore more often as of late.
What do you guys think? I'd like to hear from long time /co/ people, especially.
1) As I said, my friend cloud is drifting to include long-time Western comic fans.
2) Western comics are undergoing a Renaissance of quality and creativity.
3) Interest is drifting; certain influential people re-discover Western comics, and spread the re-found brilliance to others in their peer groups.
4) It's not just me getting cynical and older; the overall quality of manga is going down. And that is sad.
5) The novelty of manga is lost, and manga actually has to be *good* to attract attention now. Which I approve of. The same standard is being applied to American comics with that loss of novelty. This is, IMHO, the best outcome, as it holds both mediums to a higher standard of artwork and storytelling.
6) Me and my peer group are growing up, and our tastes change accordingly. Honestly, I don't really like the standard Marvel art style--too muscular and Spandexy and blah--but I can see past that to a good story, easily.
7) As the hipster generation comes of age, it likes these things "ironically".
8) I have had something to the order of four cups of coffee and little to eat, and should stop taking out my ass.
Honestly, though, I do not feel as though I am in much of a position to evaluate. I don't read Marvel, I've only read some of the 'artsy' DC/Vertigo stuff like Sandman and Watchmen and some of the darker 80's Batman. I read The Crow in high school, and all things Jhonen Vasquez religiously. My cohort experienced Johnny the Homicidal Maniac at a particularly vulnerable period of adolescence, where Johnny's loathing and rage against hypocrisy hit a chord. Some of that cohort did not see Johnny's hypocrisies, but there we go. They're the butt of the joke. I Feel Sick was published as we got older, and we appreciated its maturity in comparison to Johnny. It was the next stage in that evolution.
There's always been an interest in unconventional American comics. It just seems lately there is a return to the roots, the stereotypes.
I've also noticed that fandom has taken a turn toward the politically correct and activist. We're analyzing race, gender, class, and religion in our fandoms. We're asked to check our privilege and our preconceptions. More and more people (catalyzed, in so small part I am sure, by the Racebending controversy) are realizing that white, male, cis-gendered, heterosexual, and able-bodied is considered to be the default state of being. People who had not previously noticed sociological implications of works are seeing them for the first time, and engaging in discussion. There has always been a small, dedicated, intellectual subset of fandom that has done this; it seems that it has come to the fore more often as of late.
What do you guys think? I'd like to hear from long time /co/ people, especially.
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(no subject)
Date: 2010-08-04 11:10 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-08-04 07:11 pm (UTC)Don't get me wrong, I get it. I totally see that shift in comics happening, and it drives me crazy, but Alan Moore is a fantastic writer that combines both the old school Super Hero aspect of comics with deep political and social messages. (Swamp Thing is a good exapmle) Just because there are tons of fat goth kids out there like "OMGLOLZZZ Alan moore is so awesome!" shouldn't mean us old school fans should stop liking him.
Same goes for Johnen Vasquez. I love his comics and started reading them in middle school just as they were coming out, but now I see on over saturated market of merchandise based off his work being sold to teenagers that think it makes them so dark and cool. Missing the point of his work entirely. But I continue to love his work, even if the fan base drives me nuts.
But it's not easy.
Am I kind of getting what you said or missing the point?
(no subject)
Date: 2010-08-05 03:34 am (UTC)I do not like Alan Moore's writing because the things he does to female characters offend me. I do not like Alan Moore's writing because I don't see "deep political and social messages" I see "someone else did this better and you're just a toolbag with your own agenda." Also, have you looked at his scripts? He is NOT a fantastic writer. He's unhinged and the fact that artists ever worked with him is the only thing that says anything about any talent that lays under all the HOLY SHIT DUDE.
The script for Watchmen is over 150 pages long. That's just fucking unnecessary. And if it had to be 150 pages long, it could have ended with something other than a vagina monster that could be genetically dissected and clearly shown not to be an alien.
His old school fans are even more annoying, because some of them actually believe the stuff that Alan Moore says nowadays, which makes them possibly insane. They can accept no criticism of Alan Moore's work or his person, which is just dumb. He's not the Jesus of comics writing.
I never talked about Jhonen Vasquez. I love him. As a person, an artist, a writer, an illustrator. And if Slave Labor Graphics, the company, was a single human being I would probably fly to San Jose and hump it's leg and get arrested for being so damn inappropriate. I am sad that the reaction to his work is primarily what has caused Jhonen Vasquez to stop creating, especially because he's probably doing amazing things in the privacy of his own home right now and we'll never get to see them.
But considering most of my point in my original post was about the history of comic sales and creators and how we got to the place where we're at now and only 134 words out of 730 were critical of Alan Moore and most of those words were actually critical of his writing, because I'm very critical of Moore's writing, I'd say, yes, you missed the point. If you enjoyed Jhonen Vasquez's works, but you also were intensely critical of them for various reasons (and there are reasons to be critical of his work, too), but then got mobbed by people who said "You can't criticize him, he's an actual GOD with snake powers! You've doomed us all!" and, from that experience, you developed a hatred for Vasquez's work, his fans, and his self, then it would be much more in line with my hate-on for Moore.